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They should have kept their mouths shut

Started by alissain at 2008/09/04 03:42PM
Latest post: 2008/09/06 05:16PM, Views: 1107, Replies: 82
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#41   2008/09/05 02:25PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
cardgirl
image

Quote Vanrainmom:
Quote cardgirl: I may be in the minority, however, what Sonny and Carly did was in a time of immense grief. I know I have done things that I would have not have done if I would have been in a rational state of mind. Robin and Patrick had sex which came out of Robin's grief over Georgie, which is really no different than what Carly and Sonny did. It's not like Sonny and Carly set out to do that, and it is not the same as them having an affair. Should they have been honest with their perspective mates? Absolutely!

Sonny and Carly have done a lot of intentionally hurtful things, this was not one of them. I think it would have been nice to see this play out where Sonny and Carly confessed what happened, and Kate and Jax would have been able to keep it in prospective. It was sex meaningless sex. The problem now is that Carly and Sonny did not reveal this when they should have. To me this is the lie, the bigger issue. Perhaps if they would have not kept this secret for such a long time, Jax and Kate may have been able to understand it better.

So, this is what I would like to see happen, and yes, I know it will be vastly unpopular. But I would like for at least Jax to realize what truly motivated Carly's behavior, and not let this betrayal ruin what is good or what could be good about their marriage. Sometimes people who get through really big things especially in a marriage, end having a stronger relationship. As for Kate, I think she should put off the wedding to Sonny and take some more time to develop their relationship. She really needs to evaluate whether or not she wants to be with a man who lies to her about a lot of things.

Finally, I would just like to say that I thought it was so wrong for Diane to try and force Max to out the secret to Kate, and it was strange that Kate heard it from an employee, a virtual non-character. This may just be me also, but, I would not want my employees knowing these thing and or discussing them among each other which is what Max and Diane did, and I think hearing this from an employee, is well really crossing the line.


Well I am sure glad you posted this because I agree with you! And I surely wouldn't have said it as well as you. The circumstances were horrific, they were in pain and well people make mistakes when they aren't thinking clearly.
Some things are better left alone, plus Clarisse overheard it from strangers - not enough reason to blow apart a couple who are so very much in love. Just my opinion....shoot me now...


Thanks, Van for your support of my view, I know it was wrong, however, there were extenuating circumstances and for once I would like to see Carly and Sonny judged on just this one thing and not anything from the past... nothing from the past motivated this...that and at some point, there has to be something that is the catalyst for real change in Carly and Sonny, and this could be it.

#42   2008/09/05 02:38PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
cardgirl
image

Quote ShadoeCoon: In addition to my previous post(s), I do think it was wrong of Diane to push Max into telling Kate, but I don't see any issue with her discussing it with Max since he knew about the limo sex as well. Yes, Kate deserves to know prior to the wedding, however the extreme that Diane went to was, I'm sure, meant to be funny but came off as lame (to me). Clarise overhearing it and wanting to tell her friend the truth is ok in my book. I don't believe that we "know" when our significant others have been unfaithful. Yes, Sonny slept with Claudia, but that was after Kate had refused his first proposal and they had broken up. She forgave him that for her own reasons (not that I agree w/ them). SKate weren't on the outs when the limo sex had happened. Carly wasn't leaning on Jax during the whole thing with Michael. She excluded Jax pretty much completely which is one of the reasons that he left Carly recently. Yes, Sonny & Carly were grieving, but they had significant others to lean on and chose NOT to while the limo sex was going on.

Kudos to Clarise for standing up for her friend/boss.


For the most part we disagree about Sonny and Carly that's normal. But here is why it was wrong for Diane to discuss what went on with Sonny and Carly in the limo. She found out that information during a legal consultation with Carly... that still falls under attorney client confidentiality.... she can not under any circumstances dicuss that with anyone...not even somebody who knew about what happened...if she heard it on the street no problem.... but she did not, and for that she could technically be disbarred. BTW, how did Max know about this by other means than Diane telling him? I just can't remember.

And yes, it was very loyal for Clairiese to tell Kate what happened... I just thought that she heard it from someone who is not on the show very often...she is sort of a non-character. Now if it had come from Maxie which by the way, would have been really funny, then yeah, that I could see.

#43   2008/09/05 02:47PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
genhospchat
image

Quote cardgirl:
Quote ShadoeCoon: In addition to my previous post(s), I do think it was wrong of Diane to push Max into telling Kate, but I don't see any issue with her discussing it with Max since he knew about the limo sex as well. Yes, Kate deserves to know prior to the wedding, however the extreme that Diane went to was, I'm sure, meant to be funny but came off as lame (to me). Clarise overhearing it and wanting to tell her friend the truth is ok in my book. I don't believe that we "know" when our significant others have been unfaithful. Yes, Sonny slept with Claudia, but that was after Kate had refused his first proposal and they had broken up. She forgave him that for her own reasons (not that I agree w/ them). SKate weren't on the outs when the limo sex had happened. Carly wasn't leaning on Jax during the whole thing with Michael. She excluded Jax pretty much completely which is one of the reasons that he left Carly recently. Yes, Sonny & Carly were grieving, but they had significant others to lean on and chose NOT to while the limo sex was going on.

Kudos to Clarise for standing up for her friend/boss.


For the most part we disagree about Sonny and Carly that's normal. But here is why it was wrong for Diane to discuss what went on with Sonny and Carly in the limo. She found out that information during a legal consultation with Carly... that still falls under attorney client confidentiality.... she can not under any circumstances dicuss that with anyone...not even somebody who knew about what happened...if she heard it on the street no problem.... but she did not, and for that she could technically be disbarred. BTW, how did Max know about this by other means than Diane telling him? I just can't remember.

And yes, it was very loyal for Clairiese to tell Kate what happened... I just thought that she heard it from someone who is not on the show very often...she is sort of a non-character. Now if it had come from Maxie which by the way, would have been really funny, then yeah, that I could see.


Max knew because he overheard Sonny and Carly fighting about it.

As far as Diane, no she couldn't be disbarred but Carly could sue her for damages. Carly could TRY to disbar Diane but there are no REAL grounds for it.

Regardless who it came from, Diane, Maxie, Max or Clarisse, it was still wrong and there ARE NO extenuating circumstances. You're grieving so it's ok to sleep with an ex?? NO!! If Jax and Carly (or Kate and Sonny for that matter) were separated or divorcing, ok then BUT they weren't. This is what Sonny and Carly do, they go to each other and there is ALWAYS a reason for it...no matter what. Whether it's Michael or the MC Hostage situation or it's cold outside or the birds are flying into the windows, there's ALWAYS some excuse. This has been going on for 8 years now and it's time to STOP! They say they love others and are through (they always say that), then GROW UP and be with who you love, not your ex everytime you're in a pinch!

#44   2008/09/05 03:08PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
pegrckr
image

Quote genhospchat:
Quote cardgirl:
Quote ShadoeCoon: In addition to my previous post(s), I do think it was wrong of Diane to push Max into telling Kate, but I don't see any issue with her discussing it with Max since he knew about the limo sex as well. Yes, Kate deserves to know prior to the wedding, however the extreme that Diane went to was, I'm sure, meant to be funny but came off as lame (to me). Clarise overhearing it and wanting to tell her friend the truth is ok in my book. I don't believe that we "know" when our significant others have been unfaithful. Yes, Sonny slept with Claudia, but that was after Kate had refused his first proposal and they had broken up. She forgave him that for her own reasons (not that I agree w/ them). SKate weren't on the outs when the limo sex had happened. Carly wasn't leaning on Jax during the whole thing with Michael. She excluded Jax pretty much completely which is one of the reasons that he left Carly recently. Yes, Sonny & Carly were grieving, but they had significant others to lean on and chose NOT to while the limo sex was going on.

Kudos to Clarise for standing up for her friend/boss.


For the most part we disagree about Sonny and Carly that's normal. But here is why it was wrong for Diane to discuss what went on with Sonny and Carly in the limo. She found out that information during a legal consultation with Carly... that still falls under attorney client confidentiality.... she can not under any circumstances dicuss that with anyone...not even somebody who knew about what happened...if she heard it on the street no problem.... but she did not, and for that she could technically be disbarred. BTW, how did Max know about this by other means than Diane telling him? I just can't remember.

And yes, it was very loyal for Clairiese to tell Kate what happened... I just thought that she heard it from someone who is not on the show very often...she is sort of a non-character. Now if it had come from Maxie which by the way, would have been really funny, then yeah, that I could see.


Max knew because he overheard Sonny and Carly fighting about it.

As far as Diane, no she couldn't be disbarred but Carly could sue her for damages. Carly could TRY to disbar Diane but there are no REAL grounds for it.

Regardless who it came from, Diane, Maxie, Max or Clarisse, it was still wrong and there ARE NO extenuating circumstances. You're grieving so it's ok to sleep with an ex?? NO!! If Jax and Carly (or Kate and Sonny for that matter) were separated or divorcing, ok then BUT they weren't. This is what Sonny and Carly do, they go to each other and there is ALWAYS a reason for it...no matter what. Whether it's Michael or the MC Hostage situation or it's cold outside or the birds are flying into the windows, there's ALWAYS some excuse. This has been going on for 8 years now and it's time to STOP! They say they love others and are through (they always say that), then GROW UP and be with who you love, not your ex everytime you're in a pinch!


I agree with you on this. I'm glad it's out! People forget Carly reamed Jax for a mere kiss with Kate! What gives them the right to hide the sex! Why are they better then everyone else and allowed to get away with things? If Jax leaves again then so be it he never should have come back!

#45   2008/09/05 03:13PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
frustratedfan
image

Gen, I almost fell out of my chair when I saw this part of your post,

She cheats on Jax one time with Sonny and Jax forgave her, so shame on her, she cheats a SECOND time on Jax and IF he were to forgive her, shame on him. Forgiving her and making all ok AGAIN would be like saying "oh have sex with Sonny anytime you want as long as you have a good reason to and our marriage will survive."



It is almost ver batim what I was thinking and wanted to post. Soooooo eerie!

I agree with the rest of your post as well. I don't get how you can separate this incidence from others when it is the same event, with the same people, over and over again...hence a pattern. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. PREDICTOR not absolute but the probability that it will occur AGAIN is very high.

If Jax is ok with his wife stepping outside of their marriage to hook up with her ex...repeatedly...then yes by all means carry on. I would hope at some point he would say enough especially since her actions speak louder than her words.

Modified 1 times(s), last time at: 2008/09/05 03:14PM
#46   2008/09/05 03:15PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
genhospchat
image

Quote pegrckr:
Quote genhospchat:
Quote cardgirl:
Quote ShadoeCoon: In addition to my previous post(s), I do think it was wrong of Diane to push Max into telling Kate, but I don't see any issue with her discussing it with Max since he knew about the limo sex as well. Yes, Kate deserves to know prior to the wedding, however the extreme that Diane went to was, I'm sure, meant to be funny but came off as lame (to me). Clarise overhearing it and wanting to tell her friend the truth is ok in my book. I don't believe that we "know" when our significant others have been unfaithful. Yes, Sonny slept with Claudia, but that was after Kate had refused his first proposal and they had broken up. She forgave him that for her own reasons (not that I agree w/ them). SKate weren't on the outs when the limo sex had happened. Carly wasn't leaning on Jax during the whole thing with Michael. She excluded Jax pretty much completely which is one of the reasons that he left Carly recently. Yes, Sonny & Carly were grieving, but they had significant others to lean on and chose NOT to while the limo sex was going on.

Kudos to Clarise for standing up for her friend/boss.


For the most part we disagree about Sonny and Carly that's normal. But here is why it was wrong for Diane to discuss what went on with Sonny and Carly in the limo. She found out that information during a legal consultation with Carly... that still falls under attorney client confidentiality.... she can not under any circumstances dicuss that with anyone...not even somebody who knew about what happened...if she heard it on the street no problem.... but she did not, and for that she could technically be disbarred. BTW, how did Max know about this by other means than Diane telling him? I just can't remember.

And yes, it was very loyal for Clairiese to tell Kate what happened... I just thought that she heard it from someone who is not on the show very often...she is sort of a non-character. Now if it had come from Maxie which by the way, would have been really funny, then yeah, that I could see.


Max knew because he overheard Sonny and Carly fighting about it.

As far as Diane, no she couldn't be disbarred but Carly could sue her for damages. Carly could TRY to disbar Diane but there are no REAL grounds for it.

Regardless who it came from, Diane, Maxie, Max or Clarisse, it was still wrong and there ARE NO extenuating circumstances. You're grieving so it's ok to sleep with an ex?? NO!! If Jax and Carly (or Kate and Sonny for that matter) were separated or divorcing, ok then BUT they weren't. This is what Sonny and Carly do, they go to each other and there is ALWAYS a reason for it...no matter what. Whether it's Michael or the MC Hostage situation or it's cold outside or the birds are flying into the windows, there's ALWAYS some excuse. This has been going on for 8 years now and it's time to STOP! They say they love others and are through (they always say that), then GROW UP and be with who you love, not your ex everytime you're in a pinch!


I agree with you on this. I'm glad it's out! People forget Carly reamed Jax for a mere kiss with Kate! What gives them the right to hide the sex! Why are they better then everyone else and allowed to get away with things? If Jax leaves again then so be it he never should have come back!


Not to mention, Jax was held captive by Irina, beaten and raped and Carly said "well if you had stayed home, this wouldn't have happened. Were you really raped or did you sleep with her willingly? You cheated on me!" (Meanwhile Jax is black and blue). This was the start of my loathing for Carly (and my amazement this marriage continued) and I haven't gone back to liking this character since. There is just too much, "it's ok for Carly but no matter what, Jax is ALWAYS wrong, even when he's not, for me."

#47   2008/09/05 03:21PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
ShadoeCoon
image

Quote cardgirl:

...for once I would like to see Carly and Sonny judged on just this one thing and not anything from the past... nothing from the past motivated this...that and at some point, there has to be something that is the catalyst for real change in Carly and Sonny, and this could be it.



I may not be completely understanding what you intended (so for that, if I step on toes, please forgive me), however I cannot separate the past because if not for the past they wouldn't have been in that limo together. I cannot arbitrarally forget or not notice what went on before because it MOST definitely motivates and influences what will happen. If they don't have the prior love/hate relationship, they wouldn't have "accidentally" had sex ... Carly considers limo sex as habit??? Puuuuhlease

She's married to Jax. Sonny was dating Kate. Yes, they made a mistake, Yes, they should have told their respective partners what had happened.

I personally do not believe that sex "just happens" in any case.

Grief doesn't give a person cart blanche to screw the person sitting next to them. (Neither does drugs, booze, etc.)

JMO (above comments not intended to offend anyone!)

#48   2008/09/05 03:36PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
pegrckr
image

Quote genhospchat:
Quote pegrckr:
Quote genhospchat:
Quote cardgirl:
Quote ShadoeCoon: In addition to my previous post(s), I do think it was wrong of Diane to push Max into telling Kate, but I don't see any issue with her discussing it with Max since he knew about the limo sex as well. Yes, Kate deserves to know prior to the wedding, however the extreme that Diane went to was, I'm sure, meant to be funny but came off as lame (to me). Clarise overhearing it and wanting to tell her friend the truth is ok in my book. I don't believe that we "know" when our significant others have been unfaithful. Yes, Sonny slept with Claudia, but that was after Kate had refused his first proposal and they had broken up. She forgave him that for her own reasons (not that I agree w/ them). SKate weren't on the outs when the limo sex had happened. Carly wasn't leaning on Jax during the whole thing with Michael. She excluded Jax pretty much completely which is one of the reasons that he left Carly recently. Yes, Sonny & Carly were grieving, but they had significant others to lean on and chose NOT to while the limo sex was going on.

Kudos to Clarise for standing up for her friend/boss.


For the most part we disagree about Sonny and Carly that's normal. But here is why it was wrong for Diane to discuss what went on with Sonny and Carly in the limo. She found out that information during a legal consultation with Carly... that still falls under attorney client confidentiality.... she can not under any circumstances dicuss that with anyone...not even somebody who knew about what happened...if she heard it on the street no problem.... but she did not, and for that she could technically be disbarred. BTW, how did Max know about this by other means than Diane telling him? I just can't remember.

And yes, it was very loyal for Clairiese to tell Kate what happened... I just thought that she heard it from someone who is not on the show very often...she is sort of a non-character. Now if it had come from Maxie which by the way, would have been really funny, then yeah, that I could see.


Max knew because he overheard Sonny and Carly fighting about it.

As far as Diane, no she couldn't be disbarred but Carly could sue her for damages. Carly could TRY to disbar Diane but there are no REAL grounds for it.

Regardless who it came from, Diane, Maxie, Max or Clarisse, it was still wrong and there ARE NO extenuating circumstances. You're grieving so it's ok to sleep with an ex?? NO!! If Jax and Carly (or Kate and Sonny for that matter) were separated or divorcing, ok then BUT they weren't. This is what Sonny and Carly do, they go to each other and there is ALWAYS a reason for it...no matter what. Whether it's Michael or the MC Hostage situation or it's cold outside or the birds are flying into the windows, there's ALWAYS some excuse. This has been going on for 8 years now and it's time to STOP! They say they love others and are through (they always say that), then GROW UP and be with who you love, not your ex everytime you're in a pinch!


I agree with you on this. I'm glad it's out! People forget Carly reamed Jax for a mere kiss with Kate! What gives them the right to hide the sex! Why are they better then everyone else and allowed to get away with things? If Jax leaves again then so be it he never should have come back!


Not to mention, Jax was held captive by Irina, beaten and raped and Carly said "well if you had stayed home, this wouldn't have happened. Were you really raped or did you sleep with her willingly? You cheated on me!" (Meanwhile Jax is black and blue). This was the start of my loathing for Carly (and my amazement this marriage continued) and I haven't gone back to liking this character since. There is just too much, "it's ok for Carly but no matter what, Jax is ALWAYS wrong, even when he's not, for me."


OMG I totally forgot about that one! Yes you are right all this has led up to what has been going on. Same with Sonny it's ok for him but wrong for everyone else! I wish Kate would have said to him "you betrayed me"!

#49   2008/09/05 04:14PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
meowbowow
image

Quote genhospchat:
Quote RainStormRaider: What Gen said.....


Aww, thanks Rain!!! She cheats on Jax one time with Sonny and Jax forgave her, so shame on her, she cheats a SECOND time on Jax and IF he were to forgive her, shame on him. Forgiving her and making all ok AGAIN would be like saying "oh have sex with Sonny anytime you want as long as you have a good reason to and our marriage will survive."

Again, yes they were grieving BUT this WASN'T THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENED and she was forgiven once, she should have learned from that. If she cared about Jax as she says she does, she WOULDN'T have done it AGAIN! (and as we ALL KNOW, will do AGAIN if given the opportunity to stay with Jax!!) Jax needs to run for the hills NOW and get his manhood back and become the man again that I loved in the past.


ITA!! He had better not forgive her yet again but it doesn't look like he will. I loved the looks on Sonny and Carly faces when Jax/Kate told them. It was priceless!! Their lives r about to fall apart and they deserve what they get by hiding this. Nobody needs to know, that's a bunch of B.S.!!!! If u r grieving go home to yr spouse for comfort or yr gf but the solution for those two all the time is have sex. Wrong, wrong, ALL WRONG!!!! It's about time they have to pay for it.

#50   2008/09/05 04:17PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
meowbowow
image

Quote genhospchat

Not to mention, Sonny's already slept with Claudia...HELLO, can the warning signs BE ANY BIGGER!!???


DUH u wouldn't think so would u? Kate has told Sonny when she found out about him and Claudia that if she found him sleeping w/anybody else it would be over. I just hope she sticks to her guns this time and doesn't go thru w/the wedding b/c she's worried about humiliation. While I understand her feeling that way, going thru w/it would be even worse IMO.

#51   2008/09/05 04:21PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
meowbowow
image

Quote cardgirl

Thanks, Van for your support of my view, I know it was wrong, however, there were extenuating circumstances and for once I would like to see Carly and Sonny judged on just this one thing and not anything from the past... nothing from the past motivated this...that and at some point, there has to be something that is the catalyst for real change in Carly and Sonny, and this could be it.


What motivated them during the MCHC? Only that they thot were going to die. That's no excuse either. I just do not understand why Carly should get a free pass on this. The problem is they have such a long and involved history that the past will always come into play in these instances. They always do this, no matter the circumstance.

#52   2008/09/05 04:48PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
meowbowow
image

Quote pegrckr

I agree with you on this. I'm glad it's out! People forget Carly reamed Jax for a mere kiss with Kate! What gives them the right to hide the sex! Why are they better then everyone else and allowed to get away with things? If Jax leaves again then so be it he never should have come back!


I am soooo glad it's out, it's about time that Sonny and Carly get theirs for doing that!! I don't see Jax ever forgiving this one. He barely forgave her this last time so Jax, pack up and leave her forever.

#53   2008/09/05 04:52PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
meowbowow
image

Quote ShadoeCoon

I may not be completely understanding what you intended (so for that, if I step on toes, please forgive me), however I cannot separate the past because if not for the past they wouldn't have been in that limo together. I cannot arbitrarally forget or not notice what went on before because it MOST definitely motivates and influences what will happen. If they don't have the prior love/hate relationship, they wouldn't have "accidentally" had sex ... Carly considers limo sex as habit??? Puuuuhlease

She's married to Jax. Sonny was dating Kate. Yes, they made a mistake, Yes, they should have told their respective partners what had happened.

I personally do not believe that sex "just happens" in any case.

Grief doesn't give a person cart blanche to screw the person sitting next to them. (Neither does drugs, booze, etc.)

JMO (above comments not intended to offend anyone!)


BRAVO, excellent post!!

#54   2008/09/05 04:54PM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
meowbowow
image

Quote pegrckr

OMG I totally forgot about that one! Yes you are right all this has led up to what has been going on. Same with Sonny it's ok for him but wrong for everyone else! I wish Kate would have said to him "you betrayed me"!


And he betrayed her twice....... 1st w/Claudia then w/Carly. He kept spouting to Diane that he would never do it again but he will b/c he's done it in the past so many times.

#55   2008/09/06 09:32AM
Re: They should have kept their mouths shut
Devil-or-Angel
image

Glad that is finally came out!

There are so many points of view out there and I agree with so many of them, such as

I understand how and why the CarSon sex happened (I'm not saying it was ok or anything like that, I'm just saying I understand how and why it could happen). AS parents they were feeling helpless and hurt from not being able to help their child and they turned to each, the one person who WAS able to understand what they were going thru because he/she was going thru the exact samething. They should have be able to turn to each other for comfort, as long as that comfort did not violate the boundaries of their current relationships.

I aslo believe that Kate and Jax should have heard this news from Carly and Sonny directly. While I undertand the wanting to help a friend, I think that the "friends" in question (Diane & Clarrise) should have given Carly and Sonny an opportunity to confess what had happend within a certain amount of time, but warned that if they did not, then they would take it upon themselves to inform their friend(s), before the wedding. This would have at least given CarSon a chance to do the right thing even if it was a day late and a dollar short.

I agree that Kate should not be completely surprised by Sonny's cheating. However his episode with Claudia has nothing to do with this incident. Yes it was wrong of Sonny to sleep with someone with-in hours of Kate refusing his proposal, but Kate already knows about it and has forgiven him, so it's in the past and there for irrelavant as far as the current situation goes (IMO). I think that if Sonny had told her the truth right away she may have understood and accepted it easier, because of the circumstances (then). But now it has been compounded by months of silence which is essentially a betrayal of trust. Also it has left her open to the humilation of others knowing (and discussing) something about your private life you yourself don't know , which for a woman like Kate is unforgivable.

Carly and Jax is a whole different matter because this is not the first time Carly has cheated on Jax with Sonny. Add on top of that the fact that Carly reamed him for a simple kiss, and blamed him for the whole "Irena" incident, all the while withholding the fact that she herself has done WORSE than him - again. I think that if Jax forgives her (yet again), He is an even bigger idiot than I ever took him for. I hope he kicks her cheating hinie to the curb - both figuratley and literally!

In conclusion, the one person who will be hurt the most is Morgan who will most likely lose a stepfather, as if losing a father, brother and uncle (Jason) wasn't enough already. And the person who will end up paying for this is likely to be Jason. Because as we know Carly will run straight to him for a shoulder to cry on, and with no Sonny or Jax in they picture anymore she might just set her sights on re-igniting the relationship with him.
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