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Soaps Boards :: General Hospital Forum :: JaSam and Sam Spoilers
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Jasam09![]() |
Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: The real Jason Morgan was kidnapped and is being held in a really chilly cave somewhere. This is actually his cloned self that an evil scientist created. The scientist was actually hiding behind the rock that Jasey-poo cracked his head open on all those years ago. Orig-Jason is currently being programmed in that cave to believe he is an indestructible robot who is invincible, and really in love with Liz. But the scientist didn't account for the fact that his love for Sam would make that IMPOSSIBLE to do. His memory has been wiped clean, except for these weird flashes of a tiny brunette woman who talks a lot. This is frustrating the mad scientist. Another thing that is frustrating the scientist, is that after all his time he spent on programing the clone to love Liz when he came to Port Charles, the clone ended up really only loving Sam, for unknown reasons. Now we are faced with a NEW dilemma. If the clone actually is the one who fathered Liz's child, does that make Orig-Jason the dad? What happens when he comes back and the clone has been shot at by the mad scientist, since he saw the clone as a failed experiment, and the clone is dead? Does that make Jake, the real Jason's responsibility? Or does this mean that Jake isn't human at all? SO MANY QUESTIONS!! I can't believe the writers are making up such a stupid STORY!!! Ummm! Let think about that last statement for a moment shall we.... They would be the same writers who gave us 2 years of coma inducing Liason instead super hot JaSexy love scenes! I could believe it of them.... Yep, we are talking about the same ones!!!!!! Maybe that's why Michael was put into a coma. He was so bored with Liason's non-epicness, that he purposefully placed himself in the exact right spot for the ricocheted bullet to put him out of his misery. Michael is the brilliant one in all this!!!! |
Devil-or-Angel![]() |
Quote Jasam09: Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: The real Jason Morgan was kidnapped and is being held in a really chilly cave somewhere. This is actually his cloned self that an evil scientist created. The scientist was actually hiding behind the rock that Jasey-poo cracked his head open on all those years ago. Orig-Jason is currently being programmed in that cave to believe he is an indestructible robot who is invincible, and really in love with Liz. But the scientist didn't account for the fact that his love for Sam would make that IMPOSSIBLE to do. His memory has been wiped clean, except for these weird flashes of a tiny brunette woman who talks a lot. This is frustrating the mad scientist. Another thing that is frustrating the scientist, is that after all his time he spent on programing the clone to love Liz when he came to Port Charles, the clone ended up really only loving Sam, for unknown reasons. Now we are faced with a NEW dilemma. If the clone actually is the one who fathered Liz's child, does that make Orig-Jason the dad? What happens when he comes back and the clone has been shot at by the mad scientist, since he saw the clone as a failed experiment, and the clone is dead? Does that make Jake, the real Jason's responsibility? Or does this mean that Jake isn't human at all? SO MANY QUESTIONS!! I can't believe the writers are making up such a stupid STORY!!! Ummm! Let think about that last statement for a moment shall we.... They would be the same writers who gave us 2 years of coma inducing Liason instead super hot JaSexy love scenes! I could believe it of them.... Yep, we are talking about the same ones!!!!!! Maybe that's why Michael was put into a coma. He was so bored with Liason's non-epicness, that he purposefully placed himself in the exact right spot for the ricocheted bullet to put him out of his misery. Michael is the brilliant one in all this!!!! Well I don't think he was trying to kill himself, he was just trying to find a way to rescue his beloved Uncle Jason from what he saw as a fate worse than death...a boring suffocating life with Liz "the Boring Legacy" Webber. |
Jasam09![]() |
Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: The real Jason Morgan was kidnapped and is being held in a really chilly cave somewhere. This is actually his cloned self that an evil scientist created. The scientist was actually hiding behind the rock that Jasey-poo cracked his head open on all those years ago. Orig-Jason is currently being programmed in that cave to believe he is an indestructible robot who is invincible, and really in love with Liz. But the scientist didn't account for the fact that his love for Sam would make that IMPOSSIBLE to do. His memory has been wiped clean, except for these weird flashes of a tiny brunette woman who talks a lot. This is frustrating the mad scientist. Another thing that is frustrating the scientist, is that after all his time he spent on programing the clone to love Liz when he came to Port Charles, the clone ended up really only loving Sam, for unknown reasons. Now we are faced with a NEW dilemma. If the clone actually is the one who fathered Liz's child, does that make Orig-Jason the dad? What happens when he comes back and the clone has been shot at by the mad scientist, since he saw the clone as a failed experiment, and the clone is dead? Does that make Jake, the real Jason's responsibility? Or does this mean that Jake isn't human at all? SO MANY QUESTIONS!! I can't believe the writers are making up such a stupid STORY!!! Ummm! Let think about that last statement for a moment shall we.... They would be the same writers who gave us 2 years of coma inducing Liason instead super hot JaSexy love scenes! I could believe it of them.... Yep, we are talking about the same ones!!!!!! Maybe that's why Michael was put into a coma. He was so bored with Liason's non-epicness, that he purposefully placed himself in the exact right spot for the ricocheted bullet to put him out of his misery. Michael is the brilliant one in all this!!!! Well I don't think he was trying to kill himself, he was just trying to find a way to rescue his beloved Uncle Jason from what he saw as a fate worse than death...a boring suffocating life with Liz "the Boring Legacy" Webber. He was sacrificing himself for the greater good. (us of course) |
Devil-or-Angel![]() |
Quote Jasam09: Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: The real Jason Morgan was kidnapped and is being held in a really chilly cave somewhere. This is actually his cloned self that an evil scientist created. The scientist was actually hiding behind the rock that Jasey-poo cracked his head open on all those years ago. Orig-Jason is currently being programmed in that cave to believe he is an indestructible robot who is invincible, and really in love with Liz. But the scientist didn't account for the fact that his love for Sam would make that IMPOSSIBLE to do. His memory has been wiped clean, except for these weird flashes of a tiny brunette woman who talks a lot. This is frustrating the mad scientist. Another thing that is frustrating the scientist, is that after all his time he spent on programing the clone to love Liz when he came to Port Charles, the clone ended up really only loving Sam, for unknown reasons. Now we are faced with a NEW dilemma. If the clone actually is the one who fathered Liz's child, does that make Orig-Jason the dad? What happens when he comes back and the clone has been shot at by the mad scientist, since he saw the clone as a failed experiment, and the clone is dead? Does that make Jake, the real Jason's responsibility? Or does this mean that Jake isn't human at all? SO MANY QUESTIONS!! I can't believe the writers are making up such a stupid STORY!!! Ummm! Let think about that last statement for a moment shall we.... They would be the same writers who gave us 2 years of coma inducing Liason instead super hot JaSexy love scenes! I could believe it of them.... Yep, we are talking about the same ones!!!!!! Maybe that's why Michael was put into a coma. He was so bored with Liason's non-epicness, that he purposefully placed himself in the exact right spot for the ricocheted bullet to put him out of his misery. Michael is the brilliant one in all this!!!! Well I don't think he was trying to kill himself, he was just trying to find a way to rescue his beloved Uncle Jason from what he saw as a fate worse than death...a boring suffocating life with Liz "the Boring Legacy" Webber. He was sacrificing himself for the greater good. (us of course) Yes, yes, the fans do owe him a great debit of gratitude, if not for his selfless scarifice we might have been forced to endure ***shudder at the mere thought of it*** a Liason marriage...and poor Jasey-Poo might be in a boredom induced coma even as we speak(right along with the fans!). |
Jasam09![]() |
Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: The real Jason Morgan was kidnapped and is being held in a really chilly cave somewhere. This is actually his cloned self that an evil scientist created. The scientist was actually hiding behind the rock that Jasey-poo cracked his head open on all those years ago. Orig-Jason is currently being programmed in that cave to believe he is an indestructible robot who is invincible, and really in love with Liz. But the scientist didn't account for the fact that his love for Sam would make that IMPOSSIBLE to do. His memory has been wiped clean, except for these weird flashes of a tiny brunette woman who talks a lot. This is frustrating the mad scientist. Another thing that is frustrating the scientist, is that after all his time he spent on programing the clone to love Liz when he came to Port Charles, the clone ended up really only loving Sam, for unknown reasons. Now we are faced with a NEW dilemma. If the clone actually is the one who fathered Liz's child, does that make Orig-Jason the dad? What happens when he comes back and the clone has been shot at by the mad scientist, since he saw the clone as a failed experiment, and the clone is dead? Does that make Jake, the real Jason's responsibility? Or does this mean that Jake isn't human at all? SO MANY QUESTIONS!! I can't believe the writers are making up such a stupid STORY!!! Ummm! Let think about that last statement for a moment shall we.... They would be the same writers who gave us 2 years of coma inducing Liason instead super hot JaSexy love scenes! I could believe it of them.... Yep, we are talking about the same ones!!!!!! Maybe that's why Michael was put into a coma. He was so bored with Liason's non-epicness, that he purposefully placed himself in the exact right spot for the ricocheted bullet to put him out of his misery. Michael is the brilliant one in all this!!!! Well I don't think he was trying to kill himself, he was just trying to find a way to rescue his beloved Uncle Jason from what he saw as a fate worse than death...a boring suffocating life with Liz "the Boring Legacy" Webber. He was sacrificing himself for the greater good. (us of course) Yes, yes, the fans do owe him a great debit of gratitude, if not for his selfless scarifice we might have been forced to endure ***shudder at the mere thought of it*** a Liason marriage...and poor Jasey-Poo might be in a boredom induced coma even as we speak(right along with the fans!). AHHHH!! My ears are bleeding!! |
fefe428![]() |
[quote]Quote Jasam09: [quote]Quote Devil-or-Angel: [quote]Quote Jasam09: [quote]Quote Devil-or-Angel: [quote]Quote Jasam09: [quote]Quote Devil-or-Angel: [quote]Quote Jasam09: The real Jason Morgan was kidnapped and is being held in a really chilly cave somewhere. This is actually his cloned self that an evil scientist created. The scientist was actually hiding behind the rock that Jasey-poo cracked his head open on all those years ago. |
Devil-or-Angel![]() |
And getting better by the epiosde cause according to a quote from Guza in the 11/16 issue of SID he assures their fans that~ Jason and Sam are in it for the long haul this time. And I'm good with that! If that isn't EEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEeeeeee worthy news, I don't know what is! |
Jasam09![]() |
Quote fefe: Now I've already admitted that I tuned out of GH in 2006 when it became clear where the writers were taking JaSam. I just couldn't bear to watch...and truth be told, my life also got in the way, so I thankfully missed out on witnessing the whole Liason thing, and I can't bring myself to even watch clips on YT. However, tonight I watched their break-up in the courthouse, and if those scenes were any indication of the intensity (or lack their of) in their relationship...I didn't miss anything. Talk about a snoozefest!!!! That was what they had to tear our couple apart for!!!! It had all of the excitement of watching paint dry. I feel bad for the fans that waited all those years for the couple. I'm just thankful that the world is right again!!! I've only seen clips and heard voiceovers of Jasam breaking up in music videos, and little bits that I've seen or heard, have been some of the most heartbreaking things EVER. There was so much anger, and hate, and detestation, and heartache in the words they threw around at each other. It just pains me to think about it. I wasn't watching then either. And I can't bring myself to watch it on YT now. Too hard. But here is the thing: The writers knew they were tearing apart something so beautiful, that they had to make it believable for them to stay away from each other for good. They had them do unthinkable things, and scream and yell unthinkable words, for it to work. I think that the fact that their break-up was so hard and disheartening is a testament to how powerful they were to each other. Liason???? Not so much. As you said, that break-up was a snooze fest. I saw some sadness, but their lives weren't ripped apart like Jason and Sam's were when they went separate ways. I think it says something about the couples when compared with each other. Thanks for bringing that up. I've never thought about that before. |
McLovinSam![]() |
Quote Jasam09: Quote fefe: Now I've already admitted that I tuned out of GH in 2006 when it became clear where the writers were taking JaSam. I just couldn't bear to watch...and truth be told, my life also got in the way, so I thankfully missed out on witnessing the whole Liason thing, and I can't bring myself to even watch clips on YT. However, tonight I watched their break-up in the courthouse, and if those scenes were any indication of the intensity (or lack their of) in their relationship...I didn't miss anything. Talk about a snoozefest!!!! That was what they had to tear our couple apart for!!!! It had all of the excitement of watching paint dry. I feel bad for the fans that waited all those years for the couple. I'm just thankful that the world is right again!!! I've only seen clips and heard voiceovers of Jasam breaking up in music videos, and little bits that I've seen or heard, have been some of the most heartbreaking things EVER. There was so much anger, and hate, and detestation, and heartache in the words they threw around at each other. It just pains me to think about it. I wasn't watching then either. And I can't bring myself to watch it on YT now. Too hard. But here is the thing: The writers knew they were tearing apart something so beautiful, that they had to make it believable for them to stay away from each other for good. They had them do unthinkable things, and scream and yell unthinkable words, for it to work. I think that the fact that their break-up was so hard and disheartening is a testament to how powerful they were to each other. Liason???? Not so much. As you said, that break-up was a snooze fest. I saw some sadness, but their lives weren't ripped apart like Jason and Sam's were when they went separate ways. I think it says something about the couples when compared with each other. Thanks for bringing that up. I've never thought about that before. Oh god...that look that Sam gave to Jason when she walked out the door, the look in his eyes...just broke my heart. It was so powerful... actually look at their first break up as well when jason broke up with Sam in the hospital...Sam had me in tears. Kemo rocked those scenes. With liason it was just sorta like "ok this chapter in my life is ending but thats ok..." it wasnt like this gut wrenching life shattering thing. Like god forbid something happened between my husband and myself...it wouldnt be this polite breakup...it would be earth shattering for me. I can admit that Jason and Liz loved each other at one point in time but it wasnt the kind of soul mate, true love, forever and ever kind. |
Jasam09![]() |
Quote McLovinSam: Quote Jasam09: Quote fefe: Now I've already admitted that I tuned out of GH in 2006 when it became clear where the writers were taking JaSam. I just couldn't bear to watch...and truth be told, my life also got in the way, so I thankfully missed out on witnessing the whole Liason thing, and I can't bring myself to even watch clips on YT. However, tonight I watched their break-up in the courthouse, and if those scenes were any indication of the intensity (or lack their of) in their relationship...I didn't miss anything. Talk about a snoozefest!!!! That was what they had to tear our couple apart for!!!! It had all of the excitement of watching paint dry. I feel bad for the fans that waited all those years for the couple. I'm just thankful that the world is right again!!! I've only seen clips and heard voiceovers of Jasam breaking up in music videos, and little bits that I've seen or heard, have been some of the most heartbreaking things EVER. There was so much anger, and hate, and detestation, and heartache in the words they threw around at each other. It just pains me to think about it. I wasn't watching then either. And I can't bring myself to watch it on YT now. Too hard. But here is the thing: The writers knew they were tearing apart something so beautiful, that they had to make it believable for them to stay away from each other for good. They had them do unthinkable things, and scream and yell unthinkable words, for it to work. I think that the fact that their break-up was so hard and disheartening is a testament to how powerful they were to each other. Liason???? Not so much. As you said, that break-up was a snooze fest. I saw some sadness, but their lives weren't ripped apart like Jason and Sam's were when they went separate ways. I think it says something about the couples when compared with each other. Thanks for bringing that up. I've never thought about that before. Oh god...that look that Sam gave to Jason when she walked out the door, the look in his eyes...just broke my heart. It was so powerful... actually look at their first break up as well when jason broke up with Sam in the hospital...Sam had me in tears. Kemo rocked those scenes. With liason it was just sorta like "ok this chapter in my life is ending but thats ok..." it wasnt like this gut wrenching life shattering thing. Like god forbid something happened between my husband and myself...it wouldnt be this polite breakup...it would be earth shattering for me. I can admit that Jason and Liz loved each other at one point in time but it wasnt the kind of soul mate, true love, forever and ever kind. Perfectly stated. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I agree. I do admit that Liz and Jason loved each other. To me it was the way that Lucky and Sam loved each other. They were there for each other, and they helped each other. But I never had the feeling or idea in my head about a GREAT love, or an epic romance, or anything of that nature. But with Liason, I didn't even think they helped each other. That relationship for Jason just reminded him every day of how he can't be with someone who is unable to handle is life. OH WAIT, HE HAD someone who could handle it!! But she was kicked to the curb for someone who couldn't? None of it adds up. The main difference between Lusam and Liason is, that I sorta liked Lusam when I couldn't have Jasam. But I never understood Liason. There is so much hype with that couple. It just seems so contrived to me, especially the way the writers tried to shove them down our throats, by ripping Jason and Sam apart the way they did. |
cincyghfan![]() |
Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: Quote Devil-or-Angel: Quote Jasam09: The real Jason Morgan was kidnapped and is being held in a really chilly cave somewhere. This is actually his cloned self that an evil scientist created. The scientist was actually hiding behind the rock that Jasey-poo cracked his head open on all those years ago. Orig-Jason is currently being programmed in that cave to believe he is an indestructible robot who is invincible, and really in love with Liz. But the scientist didn't account for the fact that his love for Sam would make that IMPOSSIBLE to do. His memory has been wiped clean, except for these weird flashes of a tiny brunette woman who talks a lot. This is frustrating the mad scientist. Another thing that is frustrating the scientist, is that after all his time he spent on programing the clone to love Liz when he came to Port Charles, the clone ended up really only loving Sam, for unknown reasons. Now we are faced with a NEW dilemma. If the clone actually is the one who fathered Liz's child, does that make Orig-Jason the dad? What happens when he comes back and the clone has been shot at by the mad scientist, since he saw the clone as a failed experiment, and the clone is dead? Does that make Jake, the real Jason's responsibility? Or does this mean that Jake isn't human at all? SO MANY QUESTIONS!! I can't believe the writers are making up such a stupid STORY!!! Ummm! Let think about that last statement for a moment shall we.... They would be the same writers who gave us 2 years of coma inducing Liason instead super hot JaSexy love scenes! I could believe it of them.... Yep, we are talking about the same ones!!!!!! Maybe that's why Michael was put into a coma. He was so bored with Liason's non-epicness, that he purposefully placed himself in the exact right spot for the ricocheted bullet to put him out of his misery. Michael is the brilliant one in all this!!!! Well I don't think he was trying to kill himself, he was just trying to find a way to rescue his beloved Uncle Jason from what he saw as a fate worse than death...a boring suffocating life with Liz "the Boring Legacy" Webber. Wow, that is some story. LOL!! |
cincyghfan![]() |
Quote Devil-or-Angel: And getting better by the epiosde cause according to a quote from Guza in the 11/16 issue of SID he assures their fans that~ Jason and Sam are in it for the long haul this time. And I'm good with that! If that isn't EEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEeeeeee worthy news, I don't know what is! I will see your EEEEEEE and raise you a OMGODDDDDDDDD! |
cincyghfan![]() |
Quote McLovinSam: Quote Jasam09: Quote fefe: Now I've already admitted that I tuned out of GH in 2006 when it became clear where the writers were taking JaSam. I just couldn't bear to watch...and truth be told, my life also got in the way, so I thankfully missed out on witnessing the whole Liason thing, and I can't bring myself to even watch clips on YT. However, tonight I watched their break-up in the courthouse, and if those scenes were any indication of the intensity (or lack their of) in their relationship...I didn't miss anything. Talk about a snoozefest!!!! That was what they had to tear our couple apart for!!!! It had all of the excitement of watching paint dry. I feel bad for the fans that waited all those years for the couple. I'm just thankful that the world is right again!!! I've only seen clips and heard voiceovers of Jasam breaking up in music videos, and little bits that I've seen or heard, have been some of the most heartbreaking things EVER. There was so much anger, and hate, and detestation, and heartache in the words they threw around at each other. It just pains me to think about it. I wasn't watching then either. And I can't bring myself to watch it on YT now. Too hard. But here is the thing: The writers knew they were tearing apart something so beautiful, that they had to make it believable for them to stay away from each other for good. They had them do unthinkable things, and scream and yell unthinkable words, for it to work. I think that the fact that their break-up was so hard and disheartening is a testament to how powerful they were to each other. Liason???? Not so much. As you said, that break-up was a snooze fest. I saw some sadness, but their lives weren't ripped apart like Jason and Sam's were when they went separate ways. I think it says something about the couples when compared with each other. Thanks for bringing that up. I've never thought about that before. Oh god...that look that Sam gave to Jason when she walked out the door, the look in his eyes...just broke my heart. It was so powerful... actually look at their first break up as well when jason broke up with Sam in the hospital...Sam had me in tears. Kemo rocked those scenes. With liason it was just sorta like "ok this chapter in my life is ending but thats ok..." it wasnt like this gut wrenching life shattering thing. Like god forbid something happened between my husband and myself...it wouldnt be this polite breakup...it would be earth shattering for me. I can admit that Jason and Liz loved each other at one point in time but it wasnt the kind of soul mate, true love, forever and ever kind. That look between Jason and Sam sustained my hope for them reuniting. Jason's face said it all, the women he loved and adored, the women he was FURIOUS with, the women that held his heart in her hand, the women that was his happiness and light was leaving him. Powerful stuff! |
fefe428![]() |
Quote cincyghfan: Quote McLovinSam: Quote Jasam09: Quote fefe: Now I've already admitted that I tuned out of GH in 2006 when it became clear where the writers were taking JaSam. I just couldn't bear to watch...and truth be told, my life also got in the way, so I thankfully missed out on witnessing the whole Liason thing, and I can't bring myself to even watch clips on YT. However, tonight I watched their break-up in the courthouse, and if those scenes were any indication of the intensity (or lack their of) in their relationship...I didn't miss anything. Talk about a snoozefest!!!! That was what they had to tear our couple apart for!!!! It had all of the excitement of watching paint dry. I feel bad for the fans that waited all those years for the couple. I'm just thankful that the world is right again!!! I've only seen clips and heard voiceovers of Jasam breaking up in music videos, and little bits that I've seen or heard, have been some of the most heartbreaking things EVER. There was so much anger, and hate, and detestation, and heartache in the words they threw around at each other. It just pains me to think about it. I wasn't watching then either. And I can't bring myself to watch it on YT now. Too hard. But here is the thing: The writers knew they were tearing apart something so beautiful, that they had to make it believable for them to stay away from each other for good. They had them do unthinkable things, and scream and yell unthinkable words, for it to work. I think that the fact that their break-up was so hard and disheartening is a testament to how powerful they were to each other. Liason???? Not so much. As you said, that break-up was a snooze fest. I saw some sadness, but their lives weren't ripped apart like Jason and Sam's were when they went separate ways. I think it says something about the couples when compared with each other. Thanks for bringing that up. I've never thought about that before. Oh god...that look that Sam gave to Jason when she walked out the door, the look in his eyes...just broke my heart. It was so powerful... actually look at their first break up as well when jason broke up with Sam in the hospital...Sam had me in tears. Kemo rocked those scenes. With liason it was just sorta like "ok this chapter in my life is ending but thats ok..." it wasnt like this gut wrenching life shattering thing. Like god forbid something happened between my husband and myself...it wouldnt be this polite breakup...it would be earth shattering for me. I can admit that Jason and Liz loved each other at one point in time but it wasnt the kind of soul mate, true love, forever and ever kind. That look between Jason and Sam sustained my hope for them reuniting. Jason's face said it all, the women he loved and adored, the women he was FURIOUS with, the women that held his heart in her hand, the women that was his happiness and light was leaving him. Powerful stuff! I can imagine that it was incredibly powerful, which is why I was so surprised about his break up with Liz. I mean the Liason fans swear that Jason and Liz have this incredible love that is so powerful, but I just didn't see it in this break-up scene. I mean you could tell that he was not happy, but he didn't look like he was in pain about not being able to be with her. It seemed the pain he was in had more to do with Jake. IMO the feelings he has for Liz are more about the fact that she's Jake's mother. They aren't built on the all consuming love he has for Sam, where the person is a part of your heart. I'm do excited to see where the writer's are going to take their s/l. Let's hope it does them justice!!! |
fefe428![]() |
It seems like we may have to deal with being very "spoiler deprived" for awhile. I read somewhere that TPTB are keeping any and all information about the James Franco storyline under wraps, refusing to let any information about the specifics slip out. Since JaSam are supposedly heavily involved in the story it stands to reason that we may not be able to find out much about them either. |
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