Soaps.com - MESSAGE BOARDS

lovesit, another thing to consider...last week Obama gave his big speech to the Muslim world in Cairo. With that backdrop, the media are going to be even less willing to bring to light the Muslim convert who shot army recruits.

[quote]Quote alwaysEJ: [quote]Quote sarahconnor: [quote]Quote alwaysEJ: [quote]Quote Plot-Twister: "Our creator" is deliberatly vague. Your creator may be god, while another's is evolution, another is reincarnation, another is the speghetti monster. "our Cretor" is not a specific person or entity and it was stated that way to cover all beliefs.[/quote]

True, it is vague, however I don't think many American men & women have given their lives in the pursuit of freedom - for Americans or others - b/c they felt freedom was an unalienable right bestowed on men by the spaghetti monster.

If you read the writings of America's founders, there are many references to God, to the Creator, but no references (that I am aware of) to a spaghetti monster. The beauty of America is that you can believe in whoever or whatever you want (or believe in nothing & no one), but our founders & our military fought for your right to do so b/c they believe(d) you have the right to be free, & they believe(d) that right is yours b/c of their belief in God as Creator.

Americans have & continue to benefit from our founders belief in an Almighty God, & just b/c some don't believe in Him, doesn't mean they don't continue to reap the benefits of living in a country that was founded by men who believed in God.[/quote]

oh sheesh how things can become very twisted and sorted. our military fights for our rights under our country's constitution..freedom of religion is traced all the way back to our 3rd president (Jefferson) who believed in the separation of the Church and government. freedom of religion is a constitutionally guaranteed right provided in the religion clauses of the First Amendment. this is why it's specified so general statements attributing religion can not be proven.

and technically America WAS founded as a Christian nation...it may have been Catholic. the original beliefs changed - it was founded and decided upon as a nation for EVERYONE. who is to say who is right and who is wrong?
initially COLOMBUS wanted to spread his beliefs to far away "lands"...and they say to become famous and rich as well.

our admendents support freedom of religion - thankyou Thomas Jefferson! HE was an Episcopalian but was in personal conflict with certain views.

quoted from
www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html :

Jefferson, however, was interested in morals and ethics and thought that morals and ethics were important but that's different than saying religion is important because morals and ethics can come from many sources other than religion and Jefferson knew that and understood that.

quoted from
etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.html

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.

also stated in the Declaration of Independance :

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

so basically our "Creator" can mean our mother/father - God - OR whatever we choose to believe due to freedom of religion. so as plot says yes, sure the spagetti monster when it comes to some people and they have the right to that b/c of our country's constitution for which our military honors.[/quote]

I am a fan of freedom of religion, separation of church & state...I never said otherwise. My point was that b/c of their belief in a higher power, a Creator, our founders felt that man shouldn't be subject to a powerful federal govt. in matters of religion. B/c they believed in a Creator, they felt there is a power greater than any govt. on earth & people should be free to worship & acknowledge their Creator, or not, & the feds have zero say in the matter. This idea is woven in all of our founding documents, several of which you quote. It is nations founded & run by by men who have no belief in a higher power that tend to dictate religion to their people.

I don't understand the Catholic statement. Catholicism was seen as a negative by some early settlers, & as late as 1960, when JFK was elected as the first Catholic president, some people were bothered by his Catholic faith.[/quote]

you are really simplying this way too much. it's MUCH more complex than that. do you realize the colony of Maryland was founded on the Catholic religion b/c of queen Mary?

but back to the first point i bolded - most of our founding fathers were from England - the need for a government technically came from wanting to break out from the power of a King or Queen - it had to do with economics & politics itself, NOT religion..our founding fathers were made up of Protestants, Catholics & deists (as well as the people that traveled over here for the most part) - their ideal government came from the model for roman republic which is very separate from religion. when they first created the Declaration of Indepenence a "creator" was mentioned but not specified..it was meant to be vague. the Declaration of Indepenence has no legal standpoint and was written to basically tell England "we are separate from you". from THERE the constitution was written 10 years later to specify what the government can and can not do and as you know, that is where religion is taken OUT. Freedom was a decided upon right for individuals just as freedom of religion. it had more to do with breaking away from the current ideals of the kings & queens, economics & politics in themselves. they wanted their own government and a fair chance at equality. since religious viewpoints differed so much, you can't say it came out of religion b/c common sense dictates it did not.

Actually alot of the past powerful "governments" (pre-America) were always adhered by and in accordance with religion or some sort of religious viewpoint. especially Great Britian when America was founded. it was because of a difference in religious beliefs, political & economic that our founding fathers rallied for freedom in all aspects - religion included. they wanted a government separate from religion & kings & queens. Most of them came from the Age of Enlightenment too. our founding fathers had quite an assortment of beliefs. some of what jefferson believed in bordered on something other than Christianity at times....he believed Jesus was a man who was more of a teacher of morality than the true son of God. he wrote his own version of the bible..imagine if Obama tried that!

quoted from -www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm:

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus

i would address bolded part #2 but i have noooo idea what you mean by that. the statement in itself makes no sense to me. people that dictate religion to others DO have a belief in a higher power..it just may not coincide with what everyone views.

as for bolded section #3, Catholics and Protestants pretty much made up the earliest parts of America. Colombus was Catholic and from Italy. George Washington was speculated to have been Catholic..not proven. personally i feel America was founded under Catholic and Protestant beliefs due to many people and b/c not agreed upon, the Constitution clarified things. there were Colonies considered to be Catholic and some considered to be Protestant and of course the division of those two religions dates back to the King Henry VIII/Ren period.

Anyway i feel it's much more complex than you are stating and the information is not entirely correct. (reasoning etc)

all of that together looks too confusing..here is my post


you are really simplying this way too much. it's MUCH more complex than that. do you realize the colony of Maryland was founded on the Catholic religion b/c of queen Mary?

but back to the first point i bolded - most of our founding fathers were from England - the need for a government technically came from wanting to break out from the power of a King or Queen - it had to do with economics & politics itself, NOT religion..our founding fathers were made up of Protestants, Catholics & deists (as well as the people that traveled over here for the most part) - their ideal government came from the model for roman republic which is very separate from religion. when they first created the Declaration of Indepenence a "creator" was mentioned but not specified..it was meant to be vague. the Declaration of Indepenence has no legal standpoint and was written to basically tell England "we are separate from you". from THERE the constitution was written 10 years later to specify what the government can and can not do and as you know, that is where religion is taken OUT. Freedom was a decided upon right for individuals just as freedom of religion. it was not backed solely by their religious views at all b/c they very much differed. it had more to do with breaking away from the current ideals of the kings & queens, economics & politics in themselves. they wanted their own government and a fair chance at equality. since religious viewpoints differed so much, you can't say it came out of religion b/c common sense dictates it did not.

Actually alot of the past powerful "governments" (pre-America) were always adhered by and in accordance with religion or some sort of religious viewpoint. especially Great Britian when America was founded. it was because of a difference in religious beliefs, political & economic that our founding fathers rallied for freedom in all aspects - religion included. they wanted a government separate from religion & kings & queens. Most of them came from the Age of Enlightenment too. our founding fathers had quite an assortment of beliefs. some of what jefferson believed in bordered on something other than Christianity at times....he believed Jesus was a man who was more of a teacher of morality than the true son of God. he tried to write his own version of the bible..imagine if Obama tried that!!

quoted from -www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm:

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus

i would address bolded part #2 but i have noooo idea what you mean by that. the statement in itself makes no sense to me. people that dictate religion to others DO have a belief in a higher power..it just may not coincide with what some view.

as for bolded section #3, Catholics and Protestants pretty much made up the earliest parts of America. Colombus was Catholic and from Italy. George Washington was speculated to have been Catholic..not proven. personally i feel America was founded under Catholic AND Protestant beliefs due to many people and b/c not agreed upon, the Constitution clarified things. there were Colonies considered to be Catholic and some considered to be Protestant and of course the division of those two religions dates back to the King Henry VIII/Ren period.

Anyway i feel it's much more complex than you are stating and the information is not entirely correct. (reasoning etc)

plot - I agree. I think they should call it "War on Terrorists" if anything.You can't battle the concept of terrorism, or you will just be having a debate club.
Because we (imo) incorrectly went to Iraq first, we made an even bigger problem for ourselves. I can only base my Iraq opinion on what my fellow friends/family have told me from when they were there since the first day - that the Iraqis were massively grateful for us. On the steets, they greeted us (mostly) with gifts and graciousness, even opening up their homes to some of us. That is the only reason why I am not so negative about Iraq as others. But I am not naive to think that that is where we should have started for our country, even though the Iraqis might have been grateful.